Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  demonwing on 2012-02-14, 13:18

The point of this entire thread is that the rulebook does not matter in this game.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Chains,_Activation,_and_Resolution

Also, a ruling for secret barrel states that:
"If you activate "Secret Barrel" and your opponent activates something as a chain, the chained card is included in the number (so if your opponent's only card on the field or in his hand is "Mystical Space Typhoon", and he chains it to "Secret Barrel", he still takes 200 damage)."

This ruling clearly implies that cards on the chain stay on the field until the end of the chain. Otherwise, Secret barrel should do no damage in the ruling's example. A vast majority of Judges would rule it that way unless, of course, they were ruling for their friend in which case it would be equally acceptable to rule toward the book.


I'm seriously questioning your ages and reasoning abilities if you aren't understanding something so simple.


How does your timezone define how good of a player you are? ._.

Most games are pretty heavily divided in this regard. For example, 99% of Brazilians are bad at HoN. 99% of Russians will rage at you in DotA. The Kenyan teams will always be top-tier in track. Top asian players will always be on top of Starcraft. On and on we go.
It's just how it works
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  S.S.A. on 2012-02-14, 13:24

your so wrong about that ruling...secret barrel counts the cards on the feild at activation, so the cards chained on to it are irrelevant
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  demonwing on 2012-02-14, 13:26

S.S.A. wrote:your so wrong about that ruling...secret barrel counts the cards on the feild at activation, so the cards chained on to it are irrelevant

Why would it ever do this? Because you said so? The counting is not a cost. It happens simultaneously with the card's resolution just like every other card worded the same way does. Dig yourself deeper kid.
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  OverlordMMM on 2012-02-14, 13:32

Demonwing is correct about the chain having to stay on the field until the last card effect's resolution. That is something which is missing from the Rulebook.

(Some cards count other cards based on resolution, others on activation. That is something which should be specified on the card itself, not the Rulebook, but many older cards need errata anyway)

Things missing from the Rulebook
1) All cards stay on the field during the chain until the entire chain is resolved + "clean-up" at the end.
2) Timing issues (When..you can; If...you can; etc.)
3) Wording issues (i.e. the difference between Legendary Fisherman and Earthbound Immortals)
4) Loops
5) Mandatory effects happening once per chain/ Phase to prevent loops. (LADD, DD Scout Plane, etc)
6) Differences between Specific Wording (discard vs send, destroy vs send, etc)

Mind you that the booklets that come with the starter and structure decks are geared toward beginners and the bulk of the issues we encounter that aren't covered in them are fairly advanced issues. That being said there should be a full guide online.

Some of the fixes to the Rulebook are as easy as adding an additional line or two (the chaining stuff, for instance). The rest need new sections.

The irony is that I believe there is this kind of documentation for judging programs, just not for core players of the game.
______________________________________________________________________________

Since we are comparing MtG stuff to YGO anyway, the last couple times I got MtG decks, the starter rules that it came with were somewhat atrocious. There were so many things unanswered that I had to look online for things which should be considered basic (keywords on card within the purchased deck that weren't included in the poster/booklet thing). And even then the info I found was questionable as I had to compare it with other things on their website.

So unless something dramatic has changed within the past year, it's much more difficult to learn MtG as a beginner without the guidance of a more advanced player, whereas YGO you need an advanced player to show you solutions to more advanced issues.


Last edited by OverlordMMM on 2012-02-14, 14:00; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  Saturn on 2012-02-14, 13:34

demonwing wrote:
How does your timezone define how good of a player you are? ._.

Most games are pretty heavily divided in this regard. For example, 99% of Brazilians are bad at HoN. 99% of Russians will rage at you in DotA. The Kenyan teams will always be top-tier in track. Top asian players will always be on top of Starcraft. On and on we go.
It's just how it works

No, that's "not how it works." That's just you stereotyping.

Stereotypes =/= truth.
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  OverlordMMM on 2012-02-14, 13:57

tester12342 wrote:
demonwing wrote:

The official ruling is that all cards stay on the field until the very end of the chain they are in (or if they are destroyed by some other effect). You are actually playing it incorrectly. . .kinda. . .depending on what set of rules you read.

Where in the world did you read that? I read both the OCG (with the help of a translator, which really is the same as the TCG rulebook except in japanese) and TCG rulebook and it clearly states that a card is sent to the grave when it resolves.
Also note that the booklets are referring to individual cards, not chains. In chains they all remain on the field until the last card resolves.
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  demonwing on 2012-02-14, 14:31

OverlordMMM wrote:Also note that the booklets are referring to individual cards, not chains. In chains they all remain on the field until the last card resolves.

But there is no such thing as an "individual card". Every spell and trap is part of a chain (even if there is only one link) so I don't think it is so much "left out" as "contradictory" with the rule book.

Since we are comparing MtG stuff to YGO anyway, the last couple times I got MtG decks, the starter rules that it came with were somewhat atrocious.

If you don't have an Internet connection you will be rather at a dissadvantage, yes. I think that holds true with most things, however. Starter decks do not come with a printed rule book. They are easily available on the official website, however.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/rules/EN_MTGM12_Rulebook_web.pdf

There is a simplified rulebook that is very concise and covers everything needed for a vast majority of games including keywords, how the stack works, etc. There honestly are very few games that the simplified rulebook does not fully encompass.

There is, however, an official core rule book

http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20120201.pdf

This rule book is the end-all be-all. It gives you the information to determine how anything has worked, does work, and will always work no matter what set or what crazy card is released. Judges reference these publicly available rules for all of their rulings (not formally unless it is a huge decision). Judges are not there to make the rules. they are there as convenient reference and to keep order.

I am comparing the MtG core rulebook with the Yugioh core rulebook (version 8.0)

The pamphlets in starter decks usually just clarify new rules within the set and some basic things for someone to get the gist of the game. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about actual "rule books".

There are even official FAQs and other resources to help new players out
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  OverlordMMM on 2012-02-14, 14:43

Actually, it's not considered a chain unless there are multiple card effects involved. i.e. there is no "Chain Link 1" unless there is a "Chain Link 2".

If there is only a single card, then only that individual card resolves, not a chain. That is what the Rulebook refers to. It doesn't make a reference to "clean-up" in chains, though.

As for the Rulebooks, there is information that needs to be included in the Rulebook for YGO, but most of the stuff being referenced in this thread are advanced issues. And as I've said, these issues are documented for judging programs, but they should also be released to the public.
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Re: Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Post  Joco on 2012-02-14, 14:57

Yeah YGO is a serious business... Nah. pig
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